The return of Larry Nance Jr.: Is he the Cavs’ missing piece? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• Larry Nance Jr. Returns to Cleveland on Veteran Minimum Contract: The Cleveland Cavaliers have signed Larry Nance Jr. to a veteran minimum contract, bringing him back to the organization where he previously played. Chris Fedor described this as a “sneaky good pickup” for the Cavs, noting that Nance was playing well for Atlanta before getting injured in February, missing the remainder of the season. Nance has improved as a three-point shooter and brings versatility, playmaking ability, and defensive skills to Cleveland.
• Cavs Prioritizing Defense in Offseason Moves: The podcast hosts identified a clear theme in Cleveland’s offseason: improving defensively. Fedor emphasized that all recent acquisitions, including Larry Nance Jr., Lonzo Ball, and maintaining Sam Merrill, were made with defense in mind. This focus stems from the Cavs’ defensive struggles against the Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals, where Cleveland had the worst defensive rating among the eight teams in the conference semifinals despite having solid regular-season defensive numbers.
• Nance Provides Roster Flexibility and Versatility: Larry Nance Jr.’s ability to play multiple positions gives coach Kenny Atkinson more lineup flexibility. The hosts highlighted that unlike previous third big man Tristan Thompson who could only play center, Nance can play alongside either Jarrett Allen or Evan Mobley. This versatility allows for different lineup combinations and provides “shape-changing” options for playoff matchups, making him potentially valuable in the rotation even as a later roster addition.
• Lonzo Ball Trade Represents High-Risk, High-Reward Move: The Cavaliers’ acquisition of Lonzo Ball from Chicago in exchange for Isaac Okoro represents a significant gamble. While the hosts praised Ball’s defensive abilities (described as “the best perimeter defender the Cavs have”), playmaking, and basketball IQ, they expressed serious concerns about his injury history. Ball played only 35 games last season and missed the two previous seasons with knee issues. The trade represents Cleveland’s willingness to take risks during what they view as a prime championship window in the Eastern Conference.
• Ty Jerome’s Departure Creates Controversy: The podcast discussed Ty Jerome’s departure to Memphis and his Instagram post claiming he “was never presented with the option of returning” to Cleveland. The hosts debated whether the Cavs made the right decision letting Jerome go after his strong regular season (finishing third in Sixth Man of the Year voting). Fedor explained that financial considerations played a major role, as Jerome’s $9 million salary would have cost the Cavs approximately $50-55 million in luxury tax payments, making it difficult to justify for a player whose minutes would likely decrease with Ball’s arrival.
• Sam Merrill Contract Reflects Cavs’ Belief in His Fit: Cleveland signed Sam Merrill to a four-year, $38 million contract, showing significant commitment to the shooter. Fedor defended the move by highlighting Merrill’s defensive statistics (107.1 defensive rating with him on court versus 112.8 with him off) and his fit in Kenny Atkinson’s system with his cutting ability and continuous movement. The hosts noted that while some might view this as an overpay, the Cavaliers clearly value Merrill’s specific skill set and believe he can hold up better in playoff situations than Ty Jerome did.
• Dan Gilbert Willing to Pay Massive Luxury Tax Bill: The podcast revealed that Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert is set to spend more than $375 million on the team next season—$226 million on salaries and $149 million in luxury tax payments. This represents the second-highest total spending in the NBA behind only Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia. The willingness to pay such substantial luxury tax penalties demonstrates the organization’s commitment to championship contention during this window of opportunity in the Eastern Conference.
• Cavs Constructing Roster for Modern NBA Style: Ethan Sands noted that the Cavaliers appear to be building a roster where “everybody needs to be able to dribble, shoot and defend,” aligning with Kenny Atkinson’s coaching philosophy. The hosts discussed how recent acquisitions fit this model, with many players having ball-handling experience and shooting ability. They envisioned potential lineups featuring combinations of Mitchell, Merrill, Ball, Hunter, and Mobley that would provide both defensive versatility and offensive spacing.
• Dean Wade’s Future with Team Remains Uncertain: The podcast discussed Dean Wade’s uncertain role with the team following the addition of Nance and other players. Fedor mentioned that while the Cavaliers “like Dean and they believe in Dean… to a point,” they continue to shop him in trade discussions. The hosts debated Wade’s value, with Sands arguing his defensive abilities remain important to the team, especially given his size and wing defending capabilities, while acknowledging his offensive inconsistency.
• Tristan Thompson’s Return Appears Unlikely: With Larry Nance Jr.’s signing, the hosts discussed whether Tristan Thompson would return to the Cavaliers. They concluded it seems unlikely Cleveland would use both free agency signings on big men, especially given Evan Mobley’s role as the primary backup center. Fedor suggested the team’s 14th roster spot would likely go to “the best available player, the best fitting player that is willing to come here on the veterans minimum in a reduced role,” rather than bringing Thompson back despite his valuable locker room leadership last season.

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, back from vacay, Jimmy Watkins and alongside him we have Chris Fedor. You know ‘em, you love ‘em, they’re back and their better than ever. But we’re not here to talk about the excursions that Jimmy went on in Canada. We are here to talk about the moves that the Cleveland Cavaliers have made and the most recent one, bringing home a familiar face, Larry Nance Jr. Signing a veteran minimum contract with Cleveland, bringing him back. And we all know the lineage and the history of the Nance last name in the city of Cleveland as a whole. Chris, first and foremost, what do you think about this move for the Cleveland Cavaliers? What do you think it does for them and what it might say about Nance’s availability?

Chris Fedor: I think it’s a sneaky good pickup for the Cavs. You know, Larry’s kind of been out of sight out of mind because he missed the final two months of the regular season with an injury. And even before then, Atlanta was looking at the possibility of re signing him to an extension. They liked what he was bringing from a leadership standpoint. They liked what he was bringing from a versatility standpoint. He really improved as a three point shooter this year. He was shooting it as well as he ever has throughout the course of his career. So you know, he was, he was playing well for the Hawks and there were times where I was talking to people close to Larry that were thinking that he was going to get a contract extension from Atlanta. Atlanta was getting offers for Larry around the time of the trade deadline and they turn them all down because they valued him. It just was unfortunate for him that he got injured in February and he missed the remainder of the season. But when healthy, Larry is somebody who can play multiple positions. He’s somebody who can playmake a little bit on offense. He can shoot the three, he’s a good rebounder. But I think this kind of continues the theme for the Cavs this off season. There is a theme they’re trying to get better defensively. Each one of these moves that they have made has been with defense in mind. And I think the thing that the Cavs like about Larry, besides the fact that he has familiarity with the organization, besides the fact that he’s a first class guy, it’s the fact that he can play with Jared Allen or he could play with Evan Mobley. And if you think about their third big in the, in the Last couple of years it’s been a one position big. Tristan Thompson was going to play the five and that was it. When it comes to Larry, he can give more on the court. He provides the veteran know how and leadership behind the scenes and his ability to either play with Jared Allen or with Evan Mobley, it just gives Kenny Atkinson, it gives him more versatility when it comes to his own lineup construction.

Jimmy Watkins: It’s another shape changer. Right. In the playoffs you always want to have different buttons you can press. I even think in like in emergency situations if somebody, if you know Jared or Evan is hurt or someone’s in foul trouble, like Larry Dance could soak up, you know, few center minutes here or there, I think depending on who the opposing center is.

Chris Fedor: But I would say that he would dislike that very much. But he can theoretically do it.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, to do it sometimes you got to do what you got to do. But yeah, I mean, it’s all contingent on him being healthy and the shooting being real, which like last year it looked real before he got hurt, but that was the best and most prolonged good shooting stretch of Larry’s career. But you don’t. I’m never for, for, you know, one of the last couple roster spots. A guy who I can envision being a playoff rotation guy at, at some point. I mean, you just can’t, you can’t argue with that. No two ways to slice it. Larry Nance Jr. Is a nice pickup and he’s the like, yes, we have some questions about him, but because he is so late in the game and such a, you know, towards the back end of the roster type ad you don’t, if it doesn’t work out all right, you wash your hands a bit, no big deal.

Chris Fedor: And the other thing is, you know, when you talk about toward the back end of this Cavs roster and you look at some of the potential rotational players, I think one of the ones that has a lot of questions still is Dean Wade. I know that I am the mayor of Dean Wade island and his defensive numbers are really, really good and he’s an impactful defensive player and he can guard multiple positions, but offensively he goes through these spells where he loses confidence. And of course you got the injuries attached to Dean Wade as well. So I think when you have somebody with the versatility and the multi positional skill set of, of Larry Nance Jr. It just makes it so that you don’t have to rely on Dean Wade as much as you have in the past. And you know, that was part of the reason why the Cavs went out and got DeAndre Hunter. DeAndre Hunter was going to soak up those minutes. He was going to play a couple of those positions. The Cavs like Dean and they believe in Dean, dot, dot, dot, to a point. You know what I mean? So if, if you get to a point where Dean Wade is like integral to your success, you’re over reliant on him. That’s probably not the best place to be. But now you have somebody like Larry who can take some of those minutes and take some of those responsibilities and do some of the things that you like that Dean Wade does. So if Dean goes through one of those phases where he loses confidence or he’s not shooting the basketball, he’s passing up shot opportunities, or he’s dealing with an injury because he has dealt with injuries throughout the course of his career, then you have somebody like Larry and you don’t feel that Dean Wade absence as much and you don’t start to rely on him more than you probably should when you’re competing for a championship. The other thing is that they continue to shop Dean. If they find a deal that’s out there that they think can make them better, a better fitting player, fill in a gap somewhere else, they will certainly continue to explore that option.

Ethan Sands: Sure, you can shop Dean, but I think it would be a mistake to go away from Dean, especially how the roster is currently constructed. Unless you’re getting another player that’s 6 foot 8 and above that can play the wing and defend at the caliber of Dean weight. We know how important his defensive acumen has been for this team. And even though there are spells like Chris is mentioning, I think his defense, especially with DeAndre Hunter being on this team, you see how important it is. And Larry Nance being upwards of 30, you get to see what he’s able to do laterally, agility wise, all of these things. So I think you still need a player like Dean Wade on this roster. But as Chris mentioned, you can dumb down his role a little bit if need be. Also mentioning in this conversation, the CAVs are at 13 roster spots and they usually go into the season with 14. I wanted to gauge where your head was at when it comes to Tristan Thompson. And obviously Larry Nance is a veteran leader that you now add in the locker room. Do you think this ends the tenure of Tristan Thompson and in the locker room with the Cleveland Cavaliers or do you think that they bring him back as another big man to play the role of what he did last season and the year before?

Chris Fedor: I Just find it hard to believe at this point in time where you know Evan Mobley is going to get big minutes, you know Jared Allen’s going to get big minutes and the Cavs don’t place a ton of value to begin with on the backup center spot because Evan Mobley is technically the backup center spot. I, I’d find it hard to believe that both, both free agency signings that the Cavs make this off season are bigs. Larry NY Jr, Tristan Thompson, guys that can play that center spot. It would be very surprising to me if, if the Cavs went that direction. I think they look at a two way wing. If there is a possibility out there, I honestly think they’re just going to take the best available player, the best fitting player that is willing to come here on the veterans minimum in, in a reduced role. I think that’s what they’re looking at with this technically final roster spot because they do very, very much in the past, they do like to keep that, that 15th roster spot open for flexibility, optionality. And then on top of the fact that they’re going to pay a boatload in luxury taxes and they’re going to pay a boatload in terms of just what their salary is going to be. So this would not be the year for the Caps to, to carry 15 full time roster players. But by rule, in today’s NBA, based on their situation, they have to be at 14. So they’ve got to find one more player here this off season and I think it’s again going to be the best player available, the most talented guy, the best fitting player that’s willing to come and understand that the role that he’s going to have is not going to be significant.

Jimmy Watkins: Doesn’t that mean that Tristan’s career is like effectively over? Because I have a ton of respect for the locker room acumen that he brought to this team last year. But I do feel like a big part of the reason that he was brought here is because of his institutional knowledge, not just of championship runs generally, but of the particular one that this one had here. I’m trying to scratch like I guess lebron, oh is Roman lifeline. But I’m not coming up with a long list of teams that are, that are saving a roster spot for a guy who is not really going to help you on the court very much anymore.

Chris Fedor: I mean, I agree with that sentiment. You would have to find the right fit and the right team that’s looking for that kind of player that he either has a relationship with some of the players on that roster or he’s got a relationship with someone on the coaching staff. Detroit comes to mind. There’s the jb bigger staff tie in, obviously. And I think New York could come to mind as well because there’s the Mike Brown tie in. So it, it’s all about, does that coach value that type of influence in the locker room. And we know this, this is a relationship business. And, and part of Tristan Thompson’s value to the Cavs behind the scenes was his relationship with Darius Garland. He was a big brother to Darius. He looked at Darius as his little brother and kind of took him under his wing. And, and the Cavs saw value in that. The co. The Cavs saw value in somebody like Tristan who’s barking out defensive instructions, who’s basically an extension of the coaching staff. So does he have another relationship out there beyond the player, but with another coaching staff in the NBA where he can kind of be that kind of guy? We’ll just have to wait and see. It might be a situation where Trist has to feel it out and see who gets cut during training camp. Is there an injury during training camp? Is there an injury during the early portion of the season? It’s just from the Cavs perspective, the way that they have valued the big man spot, the backup big man spot in past years. You got two free agency signings to make. Are they both gonna be bigs? I find that hard to believe. I think because Larry can play the four or the five, and because Evan Mobley is the primary backup center and because they have Naquan Tomlin on a two way contract, I. I just don’t know that that’s going to take the priority.

Ethan Sands: So question for Larry Naz Jr. Because I don’t think anybody of the last two seasons has seen a lot of Larry Nance Jr. Whether it’s an injury, whether it’s a playing time, all these different things. I want to know, do you guys imagine him as an enforcer, as a bruiser, as someone who can bang bodies with other centers? Because I know he’s an adequate defender when we talk about fours, when we talk about hanging with five men. But is he capable of being the enforcer that the Cavs and we’ve talked about needing? Because in my eyes, Mo Wagner’s still on the board and could be a potential player that the Cavs would like to have on this team. Even though we talked about earlier in the summer the interesting possibilities of Kelly Olenek and how that might rub fans the wrong way. But I think if we’re talking about winning ball games and needing another presence off the bench like that, I think Mo Wagner is a good option to have if he’s willing to sign the veteran minimum.

Chris Fedor: Larry is a great teammate. Larry is going to stand up for his teammates every step of the way. He’ll do it in the media, he’ll do it on the court as well. But is he the quote unquote enforcer? No, that’s not who he is. His game is more perimeter based, stretches it out to the three point line, plays in some dribble handoff stuff, set screens, rolls, lob threats, stuff like that. But is he the most physically imposing guy to play the power forward spot? No, he most certainly is not. And that’s just not who he is. That’s not who he’s ever been. That’s not why he was a first round pick. That’s not why he stayed in the NBA 10 plus years. At this point in time, he’s a different kind of player. He has a different kind of skill set. And I mean, I think he can be a leader. I definitely think he can be a strong voice in the locker room. But the quote unquote enforcer for this basketball team? No, I can’t see that being the case.

Jimmy Watkins: Do they. What Enforcer? If they, if the Cavs, if you want enforcer. I mean, I just, I just don’t know what that means anymore. I guess because it’s not the 80s anymore. It’s not the night like the, did the Indiana, the Indiana Pacers out mentally tough. The Cavs because they also happen to have the toughest dude in the building all the time in, in James Johnson? I don’t think so. It doesn’t, it doesn’t hurt. It doesn’t hurt that James Johnson like things certain. I’m sure teams certainly think twice about, you know, shoving Tyrese Halliburton or something because James Johnson is sitting there on the bench. By the way, having strolled through that locker room a bunch of times during that playoff series wearing the brightest grills you’ll ever see on an NBA player in that locker room. Just to add to the James Johnson mystique. For those who don’t know, James Johnson is a black belt and a certified badass. The last dude on any NBA roster you want to get in a fight with. I don’t know, I just don’t think that the Cavs need to get mentally tougher, not physically tougher. And whether you, I remember we had a couple years ago, Tristan, Tristan like came in the game and within seconds got ejected for throwing a shimmy or something like that. And what happens next, you know, like didn’t make it didn’t make the Cavs any mentally tougher than they were before. So I had, I don’t know, I shrug off a lot of that stuff.

Ethan Sands: With the roster constructed how it is, I’m more thinking like rebounding and not getting out, tucked on the boards and having that energy aspect. I think that’s important and I think that’s slightly missing on this roster outside of Jared Allen. Right, Because Larry Nance averages 4.3 rebounds last season. Obviously that’s not indicative of him, more so his playing time for his career. He averages 6.1 rebounds a game. Right. So I just wanted to point out that I think there is 23.1 minutes.

Jimmy Watkins: That’s a pretty good, that’s a pretty good work rate. That’s pretty good work rate for our guy, Larry. And I mean, Lonzo Ball is a very good rebounder for a guard. I’m sure we’ll talk more about him later in the pot too. And we’ve talked about the DeAndre Hunter thing. He’s tall. There’s room for him to get more rebounds. They’re going to hold on to D and Wade. There’s room for him to get more rebounds. That you’re, you’re right to say though, Ethan, that that’s, I mean, for all the Cavs bullet points on their regular season resume last year, they were also about fricking everything except for rebounding. And yeah, I guess you could say that they didn’t target that as something to improve on in free age too. But then again, like Larry Nance is a pretty good rebounder or his first minute load. Lonzo’s a pretty good rebounder for his position. And I think they’re hoping for, like rebounding is a thing that you can internally improve at just by emphasizing it, emphasizing it harder.

Chris Fedor: I would also say that if, if you make a list of the reasons why the Cavs lost in the Eastern Conference semifinals to Indiana, you can make a list of reasons defensive rebounding is going to be so far down that list. The Cavs were the number two team in defensive rebounding percentage in the entire playoffs. The only team that was better from that standpoint in defensive rebounding percentage was the Milwaukee Bucks. The super sized Milwaukee Bucks. So I just don’t think that that had a lot to do with why the Cavs lost to Indiana. What did have a big reason in that loss was the fact that the Cavs couldn’t guard. They had no answers for how to slow down Indiana’s offensive attack. Now you might sit here and say, well, that’s Indiana. It’s a prolific offense, it’s one of the best offenses in the NBA. But, but here’s the thing. When you get into the playoffs and you get deeper into the playoffs, you’re playing against elite teams and in some cases you’re going to play against elite level offenses. Can you raise your defensive game to make it more difficult for that particular opponent? There were eight teams, eight teams that made the conference semifinals, eight in that series alone. In that second round series, no team had a worse defensive rating than the Cavs. Okay, so it was clear to me that coming into this off season they prioritize defense. That’s part of the reason why Ty Jerome’s not here. It’s part of the reason why they Targeted Larry Nance Jr. The advanced stats love Larry Nance Jr. In terms of the impact that he makes on the defensive end of the floor. Lonzo ball is a 97th percentile defender according to defensive estimated plus minus on the Dunks and Threes website. Sam Merrill is an 86th percentile defender, I want to say according to Dunkson3’s estimated real plus minus. So think about the moves that they have made. There’s, there’s a theme attached to them. They knew and Kobe Altman, the president of basketball operations kind of pushed back against my questioning on this in his end of season wrap up about the defensive struggles and he was like, whoa, we were middle of the pack. Yeah, you played against Miami in round one and that boosted every single number that you had. But when they got into a series against a high level offensive opponent, the Cavs could not be the defense that they, they said they were. They could not be the defense that they talked about being throughout the course of the regular season. And I don’t care about their regular season numbers because I don’t care what they did against the Utah Jazz and the Washington Wizards and the compilation of teams in the NBA. This is about can you be an elite level defense in the playoffs against elite level opponents? And against the Indiana Pacers, they were not good enough defensively, not anywhere close to good enough defensively. And you could talk about the injuries and you can talk about shooting variants and you can talk about missing open shots. The Indiana Pacers did whatever they wanted to offensively and the Cavs did not make it tough enough against the Pacers. And it was clear that they believed that because that was the theme of their off season to this point.

Ethan Sands: So speaking of a lot of the acquisitions that Chris just brought up, whether it’s Lonzo Ball, the departure of Ty Jerome and the signing of Tyrese Proctor, all of these different moves. Larry Nance Jr. Not thrown into this conversation as well. Jimmy had an article, a column come out for cleveland.com earlier this week that just delved into why the risk of the Lonzo Ball trade, the risk of losing Ty Rome, the risk of trading Isaac Okuro. Jimmy, I know you went into depth on this in your article, but what do you feel is the most important points that you can touch on for us today on the podcast?

Jimmy Watkins: My goodness, I have so many feelings about Ty Jerome. Lonzo Ball trade off Let me start by saying this. I fricking love Lonzo Ball. He’s been an awesome defender since he came in the NBA. He’s such a good passer. I mean as a, as a, I mean as a think of what the Cavs are preaching. Quick decisions, unselfishness. He the the ability to push on misses. He is all of that. He is. He is rebound. He’s one of the best hit ahead passers I’ve ever seen. He’s one of the smartest, most creative hit. A head pass Lonzo Ball is the Cavs are going to even after makes Lonzo Ball is going to take the ball out of the basket and chuck it over the defense’s head. He’s it’s like his outlet passes his head pass like it’s, it’s honestly, Kevin loves from a guard. He is incredible in that way. He he always has his head up. He sees everything. He’s got great vision. He reads the game. He is shooting. Iris Halliburton E. Yeah, very Tyrese Haliburton knee in another in another life where Lonzo Ball fixes his shot quicker and his knee cooperates. He I don’t know that he would have been Tyrese Halbert, but it’s like that archetype of player that we’re talking about. I love him. He’s a connector. He fits a lot of things that the Cavs do. He just doesn’t stay healthy. And I know that’s like it’s a lame talking point, but the Cavs have a one season window here where they’re going to be a clear cut favorite in the east in a way that they haven’t been before and probably won’t be the same way again after this. With two of the previous conference champions being down their best players and the East Being depleted as a whole. This is the, this you have to make every move with caution and I don’t know man, this one, this one was not, not super careful like Lonzo Ball. The recent data tells us that Lonzo Ball is going to miss a good chunk of time, if not majority of the season. You hope that, that he, that that’s behind him. And if you, if the Caps hit the, hit the window where Lonzo Ball turns his career around and he’s going to be healthy or they just find the one. Every, every player, even the injury prone players have seasons where they put it all together then I think this could be, this could work out. They could be better off with. Without Ty though. I even have questions about like I mean Ty and Lonzo bar very different players and one of the reasons that the Cavs were so good last year that their second unit would just bury people sometimes under freaking Ty Jerome Avalanches that Kenny Atkinson would compare to Steph Curry. And we started the season laughing and by the end of the season we weren’t laughing anymore because Ty Jerome was a legit 5040s shooter and a volume scorer at times. And I’m just still not even sure what I witnessed was real from him last year. And to me it’s this. It’s not, it’s not that the Cavs chose Lonzo Ball over tied Jerome, although they functionally replaced him with that. It’s that they. I didn’t write this part, but they gave Sam. Sam Merrill basically a very similar Ty Jerome contract. And I’m not so sure that Ty Jerome would have said yes to that same contract because sometimes the player who has been told to go get an offer, when they bring you the offer, they want you to beat it. And I could see that being the case in this, in this particular situation, but if the Cavs essentially chose Sam Merrill over Ty Jerome, I prefer to have more ball handlers. I think the Cavs. One of the main reasons the Cavs lost to the Pacers is that they didn’t have enough liable ball handlers. Yes, I know Ty Jerome was part of that problem, but I’m not sure that I’m ready to call one bad series and then, you know, particularly when he did have a good one beforehand, granted against Miami Heat, I’m not ready to write him off as a playoff performer forever. I just, I don’t know, man. I think they could have kept him. The price, the price point that he signed with Memphis really took me aback. Felt affordable to me. And bottom line is If Lonzo Ball continues the trend that he’s had for most of his career, your third guard is Tyrese Proctor or Craig Porter Jr. Or buyout guy X. And that makes me really fricking nervous for a team that depended so much on its step last year.

Chris Fedor: I think when it comes to the injury thing of Lonzo, if there is an aspect that is relatively encouraging, it’s that the knee, all of the knee troubles that he’s had, the, the knee that kept him out for two straight years in the N B A, that’s not why he missed the bulk of the second half of the season last year. It was a wrist injury. So he showed that the knee was good enough that he could still be a relatively effective player and he could still, you know, shoot volume threes. He could still organize an offense. He could still be a pesky perimeter defender. Look, Lonzo Ball is the best perimeter defender that the Cavs have. He can make that kind of difference on the defensive end of the floor. And I think one of the things that the Cavs were looking at, they were saying to themselves, okay, during the potential tie Jerome minutes, what do we look like defensively? Not in the regular season, in a seven game playoff series. We know that teams are going to hunt Darius over and over and over again. But our hope is that Darius, the kind of dynamic offense that he brings to the table helps offset that. We’ll see. But the tide to Rome minutes, defensively, those were horrendous for the Cavs, especially in that series against Indiana. Now you replace Those with a 97th percentile defender, the best perimeter defender that you have on this roster, a guy who, you know the kind of impact that, that he has made in, in the past years on the defensive end of the floor. Had he played enough games, he probably would have been in the conversation for one of the all defensive teams. So yeah, you lose offense, you lose that microwave scoring, you lose that shot making in the shot creation. But you are gaining so much, so much on the defensive end of the floor by replacing the Ty Jerome minutes with Lonzo minutes if, if Lonzo can stay healthy.

Ethan Sands: Chris, I know you touched on the need for defense of Kenny Atkinson and the Cavs moves. I think Kenny Aginson, Kobe Altman and Dan Gilbert when constructing this roster were thinking everybody needs to be able to dribble, shoot and defend. Because if you look at the trajectory of some of these players, even though Jaylon Tyson is not a point guard by his means in the NBA, he’s a player that played point Guard in College, Craig Porter Jr. Backup point guard Sam Merrill was the original ball handler at Utah State. All of these examples that tie into how the Cavs are constructing this roster to match up with the modern day NBA style, the run and gun style that they have for this team that has worked so well with Kenny Atkinson. The other thing is I’m just imagining and I’m going to put a pin in this and come back to it when we have more data of it, but a lineup, a secondary lineup, maybe this is the first unit off the bench where you have Donovan Mitchell, Sam Merrill, Lonzo Ball, DeAndre Hunter and Evan Mobley on the floor together. Sounds nasty because you still get scoring creation that you had with ty Jerome from DeAndre Hunter in this role. You, you still have the flying around that you need and the gravity and the spacing from Sam Merrill. You now have the player that gets Donovan Mitchell off the ball. In Lonzo Ball, you still have one of the best players in the NBA on the floor in Donovan Mitchell. So I just think all of these players combined would make a great lineup. And I think that’s kind of the image that the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson have for his grouping.

Jimmy Watkins: I’ll even add to it Lonzo, like we’re taking away Ty Jerome. So there’s a, a vacuum of usage there. I think Lonzo could be awesome for Evan Mobley in those second units because Lonzo is frankly always has been a pretty passive player and it’s gotten even more so since he’s had the knee injuries. I was that. God, I’ve been such a, I’ve been in such an NBA free agency podcast hole that I can’t even remember where I heard it. It might have been the hoop collective, but Lonzo last year, 80% of his shot attempts were three pointers. The man just isn’t going to the rim anymore. And when or, or when he does, he’s driving to pass. So I think he, he can. This whole ethos of get Evan more touches, speed the ball, like Alonzo Ball can be very intentional about that sort of thing. He can be very good for Evan Mobley. He can. He, he has that point guard feel of like DeAndre Hunter hasn’t touched the ball in a couple possessions. We want him to feel like he’s has ownership of this offense. Let’s, let’s do something for him over there.

Chris Fedor: Great.

Jimmy Watkins: All great in theory. In theory. But that’s kind of the Lonzo Ball story here. And it just what we, what you really don’t want at the end of the day is having Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell come April or May, feeling like they have to do everything because Tyrese Proctor is not ready. And Craig Porter Jr. Can only give you so much, given his limited playoff experience and limited shooting ability.

Chris Fedor: And you.

Jimmy Watkins: The risk of that is just super. Like, I. Chris is a good point. I know it sounds weird to say, but it actually is encouraging that Lonzo only played 35 games for. For a different reason last year. But that’s like. It’s 35 games, man. It was a good. It was a good sign. It was a good 35 games. But, like, I remember late in the year, the Cavs were playing the Bulls. The Bulls are playing for their play in lives. They’re playing seating lives and Billy Donovan’s fricking rest. Resting Lonzo Ball at the end of the season because he’d rather have him during a playing game than he then he would have him in a game that determines whether you play that playing game at home or not. That’s just an insane decision that Billy Donovan had to make. But that’s. That’s the reality with this guy. I freaking love Lonzo Ball. I’m rooting for him. I really am. He has. He had, like. I know his dad’s crazy. He kind of, like, he overcame that. He is. He plays basketball, Capital R, Capital W, the right way, and he would be a great fit for this team. I. I just don’t trust the injury history.

Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think that’s fair. Right? And. And, guys, I think when we come full circle on this conversation, we’ve talked about the Ty Jerome contract in Memphis a bunch already on this podcast, but Ty Jerome posted on his Instagram story saying this, and I quote, cleveland this past year will always hold a special place in my heart. Although I was never presented with the option of returning, nor did last season end how I wanted to. I will never forget all that this year brought. Chris, I’m trying to figure out a way to ask this, but if Ty Jerome wasn’t even offered a contract from the Cleveland Cavaliers, would that surprise you?

Chris Fedor: No. No, not at all. Because they determined coming into free agency that they weren’t going to be able to keep everybody on this roster, even the guys that they like, given their roster construction, given their salary cap situation, given what they’re dealing with when it comes to luxury tax and the second apron, they have to be judicious in how they’re going to spend their money. And if we were having this conversation about a month ago, and the Cavs had Isaac Kokoro still on the roster instead of Lonzo Ball, then the need for somebody like Ty Jerome would have increased for them. Their desire to bring back Ty Jerome would have increased for them. But they had to make difficult decisions. And when they got Lonzo, they said, hey, we’ve got some playmaking, we’ve got some ball handling, we’ve got some floor spacing, we’ve got some three point shooting. Now we need a guy like Sam Merrill. We need the cutting, we need the constant movement that he brings to our offense. We like Sam’s defense better than we like Ty Jerome’s. And I know it’s really difficult for fans to, to get a grasp of this one because, look, Ty was great. He was great during the regular season. He finished third in six man of the year. He was a finalist for six man of the year. He brought so much joy to this fan base with his trash talk, with his timely shots, with the pull up threes in transition, encouraging the crowd to get on his side. But there’s like a reality here of the Cavs like Sam Merrill, and people don’t want to accept that and they don’t want to believe that, but they like Sam Merrill, they value Sam Merrill. They believe that he can hold up better during a playoff run because he’s not going to get picked on the way that Ty Jerome did over and over and over again. I mean, if you look at the stats and you also have the eye test that goes along with this as well. But during the regular season with Sam Merrill on the court, the Cavs had a defensive rating of 107.1. That’s Oklahoma City level good. With Sam Merrill off the floor, their defensive rating was 112.8. So he is a qu. They consider him a plus defender on top of the three point shooting, the continuous movement that he brings to the offense, the cutting ability. Now you might want to sit here and say, well, look, there were some other guys in the Sam Merrill mold that were out there in free agency that didn’t get the kind of money and the kind of contract that Sam got. Did the Cavs overpay for him? I think that’s a legitimate wonder. They might have misplayed that. They might have misread the market in some ways, but they gave him a four year, $38 million contract because they like him, because they value him, and because the complexion of the roster has changed since the end of the season where they felt like Lonzo and Sam made more sense than Lonzo and Ty.

Jimmy Watkins: Here’S what I’ll say about the Ty Jerome, did he. Did he not get a contract offer? In situations like these, I would say that the chain of information is tricky. They always tell you not to take, you know, business isn’t personal. That’s what everybody says in these situations. That’s. That’s an easy thing to say before you’re told no. And I think that there are different ways for a player. Like, I don’t. Do I think the Cavs, whether they formally offered Tyrone a contract or not, do I think they wrote him off from the end of the season on onward? No, I don’t think that. But there are other ways that you can tell people that, hey, you might want to start looking elsewhere. And I think that players, athletes in general, but particularly this one, we talked about this before free agency, that Ty Jerome, you know, be careful. If you want to bring him back, be careful negotiating with him because he’s a very prideful player, an ambitious player, particularly a guy like Ty might take something two or three steps removed from. We’re not offering you at a contract to mean we’re not offering you a contract. Right. So that’s kind of messy. And that. I’ll tell you what, if, if I was, if I was Malik Beasley when Ty Jerome came to Cleveland, I’d be betting the over on those field goal attempts.

Ethan Sands: All right.

Jimmy Watkins: I’d be hammering that over. Hammering it. Good luck out there. Malik Beasley. I don’t know that guy’s going to play another game, but, yeah, it makes sense. I understand. Like, you have Lonzo Ball. He’s going to soak up a lot of the Tide Jerome role. They do different things, but you’re going to want them to play a similar position. I mean, I do. Lonzo Ball can play probably guard three positions and he’s a very malleable game. But if you, if you like Sam, if you prioritize, Samuel and Kenny clearly is like, I want runner. You know, runners, cutters, shooters, that, that do grab that draw gravity off the ball. Kai Jerome’s not the, not the marathon runner that Sam Merrill is, if that’s the kind of archetype you’re looking for. I understand that. I will say, though, one, I think we all understand that Samuel is not the primary reason that his defensive rating is the way it is. Though he has held. He is an average, maybe even above average defender, which is. And teams don’t treat him like that sometimes. And so sometimes their possessions go in the toilet as a result. You’ll take that as a defense, I would also say that it’s interesting for the Cavs to say of the corporate as a whole, let’s give it, let’s give it a fourth run in the playoffs because, you know, maybe this time will be the right time. But then Ty Jerome has a bad series and I think two of those games were really bad and the rest of it was just below his standard. And they’re saying, yeah, this guy’s not a playoff guy. By the way, it sounds like the rest of the league said something similar for, for Ty to end up getting a Sam Merrill esque contract. That should be, that should be acknowledged here too, I see. Seems like there’s league wide skepticism that Ty Jerome was. I mean, the, our expectation here was like 12, $14 million. That’s what it’s going to take.

Chris Fedor: Right?

Jimmy Watkins: It wasn’t even 10.

Chris Fedor: Right.

Jimmy Watkins: It wasn’t even 10. That’s notable too. But I, I do think it’s, I’d be willing to give Ty Jerome another bit of leeway on the playoff performance. And it’s also worth noting that the Memphis Grizzlies are very shrewd front office. And particularly as it pertains to, like, guys like Ty, scrap heap guys. He’s not a scrap heap guy anymore. But like second rounders, undrafted guys, other team, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. The Memphis Grizzlies are very good at identifying these types of players as useful. So low side.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think a couple of things here really quick. $9 million from the Memphis Grizzlies does not equal $9 million from the Cleveland Cavaliers. When you’re talking about annual salary because of all the luxury tax implications and because of the second apron implications, that’s, that’s number one. Number two, you know, when the Cavs couldn’t find just like a dumping ground for Isaac Agora, like, hey, take this salary and don’t give us any back. Like, take this salary into a trade exception or take this salary into the salary cap space that you have. And they took on Lonzo. Look, they were willing to take on Lonzo because they were really excited about Lonzo and they tried to trade for him at the deadline. But the reality is it wasn’t a salary dump move. They saved money, but it wasn’t a salary dump move. And they took back $10 million of Lonzo Ball’s contract. So when that was the case and then Sam Merrill got the kind of contract that he got, it just. The Cavs felt like it made more financial Sense, instead of paying $9 million to Ty Jerome, that roster spot is now $3 million. And the difference between $3 million and $9 million is not just $6 million, not in the situation that the Cavs are in. I mean, if they would have given ty the $9 million annual salary, we’re talking about 50 to $55 million in luxury tax. And it’s really easy to go out and spend somebody else’s money. And it’s really easy to say that Ty Jerome is a good basketball player and you can find a way to justify that. But this front office would have to explain that to Dan Gilbert. And then they’d have to say, well, yeah, 50 to $55 million for a guy that only played 19 minutes. Yeah, 50 to $55 million to a guy whose minutes are probably going to. Some of his minutes are probably going to get taken by Sam Merrill and by Lonzo Ball. It just became harder to justify that sort of thing. So I think based on the situation that they’re in and with the financial commitments that they have already made with this roster using ties spot on a veteran minimum player as opposed to another $9 million player, close to double digit million dollar, they’re already close to setting records here for, for what they’re going to pay in terms of salary cap and in terms of luxury tax. It’s going to be a big check that the Dan is going to have to write. But like from a financial standpoint, Ty’s spot being worth $3,000,000 as opposed to his theoretical spot being worth $3 million as opposed to $9,000,000 is a huge chunk of savings that the Cavs can make, and it keeps them from soaring over the second apron. They’re over the second apron, but every kind of big money maneuvering means they soar over the second apron, and it becomes harder to get back under the second apron.

Jimmy Watkins: Well, they did end up paying the same tax bill for Sam Merrill, so I guess Dan Gilbert is okay with.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, but if it’s the tax bill for Sam Merrill and then the tax bill for Ty Jerome, then all of a sudden it gets really, really inflated. And I think we can understand the difference between the tax bill for Ty Jerome becoming really, really inflated and the tax bill that they’re going to have to pay on somebody who’s going to be a veterans minimum contract.

Jimmy Watkins: No, I get it. It just comes down to the think Samuel’s better playoff guy than Todd Room. I see the logic there. I would also just real quick, would love to be a fly on the wall for Kobe. Alton’s conversation with the Bulls Here’s a play. We’re identifying Lonzo Ball. You know we like Lonzo Ball and you know that Isaac Coro’s contract is not good. Not even like a. Oh, not. Not even like a second round pick. We can’t get a second round pick. Can you buy us lunch? Kobe, buy us some. Buy us a sandwich, A deep dish pizza from down the street. Something, something for this trade. I just couldn’t believe it that there was nothing else in that deal. Well done. Good GMing.

Ethan Sands: You bring up the contract that Dan Gilbert is going to have to pay and I did some digging when it comes to where the Cavs are at prior to a 14th salary slot. Dan Gilbert is currently set to spend more than $375 million on the team next year, $226 million on salaries and 149 million on luxury tax payments. So seeing as though the luxury tax payments is extremely close to the salary amount, just $77 million less kind of eye opening. The other interesting factor in this that I thought was kind of funny, the only other owner set to spend more than Dan Gilbert is none other than Matt Isbia, who’s got a $384 million total bill, 219 in salaries and $165 million in luxury tax payments. So he’s paying more in luxury tax payments than the Cleveland Cavaliers are coming into this next season. And that’s still with the Cavs waiting to find out who will be their 14th player on the roster. But guys, I think we touched on a whole lot when it comes to today’s podcast. So we’re going to wrap up here and that’ll do it for today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions as we’ll get into those likely tomorrow. So sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com/cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the cast from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.

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