CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands and cleveland.com’s Cavs beat reporter Chris Fedor discuss recent NBA trades, and the impact of injuries on the Eastern Conference landscape.
Takeaways:
- The trade between the Pelicans and Wizards raises questions about team strategies.
- Kevin Durant’s trade was influenced by his contract situation.
- Darius Garland’s contract makes him a key asset for the Cavs in trade discussions.
- The Cavs are in a unique position with the Eastern Conference wide open due to injuries.
- The Celtics’ trade for Simons was more about salary cap management than on-court impact.
- Tyrese Haliburton’s injury significantly affects the Pacers’ championship chances.
- The Cavs need to be aggressive in pursuing championship opportunities.
- The NBA landscape is fluid, and teams must adapt quickly to changes.
- The Cavs have a talented roster but need to prove themselves in the playoffs.
- The emotional impact of injuries on players can change the dynamics of the league.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands (00:03.14)
Okay. Three, two, one. What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And joining me today, none other than Chris Fidor, Cleveland.com’s Cavs Beat Reporter. And Chris, I know it’s been a while. We did some pre-recording to make sure we had our Juneteenth weekend off.
So we have a couple of different things to catch up on. And one just hit the interweb just recently. The New Orleans Pelicans are trading CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, and a future second round pick to the Washington Wizards for Jordan Poole, Sadik Bey, and the number 40 pick in the 2025 NBA draft. I know.
There’s so much going on in the NBA. still have draft covers to do. That’ll probably be a podcast for tomorrow. But I’m trying to figure out how these teams keep getting away with these deals. The New Orleans Pelicans offloading CJ McCollum and Kelly Olinick and getting back a guard in a power forward, small forward, whatever you want to consider Saneek Bey to be. What do you think about this trade in particular and how
key and how these teams are constructing their offers and what that might mean for the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Chris Fedor (01:39.214)
Yeah, I don’t understand this trade at all. think it’s essentially a trade of two sunk costs. CJ McCollum and Jordan Poole, I don’t know that one is significantly better than the other. I certainly don’t think CJ McCollum is the kind of guy who changes things drastically for the Washington Wizards. I guess it seems to me like
New Orleans was motivated to get Jordan pool. Otherwise, they could have just let CJ McCollum’s Contract expire at the end of this coming year So I guess New Orleans was motivated to get Jordan pool. They want Jordan pool I don’t know why somebody would be motivated to get Jordan pool. He’s not a winning basketball player He’s got an extra year on his contract So this one I don’t know there there’s some of these trades that happened throughout the course of the offseason Ethan where
You know, you don’t really have to squint that hard to understand the reasoning behind them. The KD deal makes sense for Houston. He’s the kind of player that they need. If they want to take the next step as an organization, he’s the kind of player that they need. The Orlando trade for Desmond Bain. That one makes sense. Again, another situation where Orlando targeted a specific player, a specific skill set, a guy who fits their system extremely well.
And they were willing to pay a hefty cost in order to get him. So that made sense for Orlando and it made sense for Memphis because of all the things that Memphis got back in return in that particular deal. And then you see some of these hypothetical trades that are floating out there as well. And you’re like, okay, I see it from that side. I sort of see it enough from that side. This one, I just don’t know. Somebody’s going to have to explain it to me because it just feels like.
one relatively overpriced, overrated guard goes to a team that is in no position whatsoever to win basketball games, the Washington Wizards, and another guard who, you know, obviously he’s been miscast in Washington, goes to a New Orleans team that it’s hard to see what their plan is for their organization right now. Do they think he’s a
Chris Fedor (04:01.634)
better fit next to Dejante Murray because I don’t know. This one to me doesn’t make a lot of sense and I don’t think it has too many layers that affect the calves aside from if you’re talking in generalities about hypothetical Darius Garland suitors and you’re going through that list, this would seemingly take another one out of the mix in New Orleans.
Ethan Sands (04:29.646)
And Chris, just a little added wrinkle for the Washington Wizards in this deal. comes just a day after three-time NBA All-Star Chris Middleton picked up his $33.3 million player option for the 2025-2026 season to stay in Washington. So now you’ve got CJ teamed up with Chris Middleton and along with Dem Cedik Bey. I don’t know if…
This might just be the old squad trying to get their last run at the bill. But you mentioned the Kevin Durant trade and I want to
Chris Fedor (05:02.358)
I think the only way, the only way Ethan, if you squint hard enough and you have to really, really, really squint. Like the only thing that you could possibly say if you’re Washington is, we like some of our young guys. We believe in some of our young guys, whether it’s Pula Bali, Alex Tsar, whoever it is they end up with in this year’s draft. We like those guys. We want them to be surrounded by good teammates. Pros.
The one thing that you can say about Chris Middleton is he does it the right way. Behind the scenes, he’s gonna help show you the way. CJ McCollum, he’s gonna show you the way. He’s gonna be a true pro. He’s gonna show you a level of work ethic. So maybe you’re looking at this situation saying Jordan Poole isn’t the right kind of person to be around our young players.
CJ McCollum is a better person, a better pro, a more accomplished player to be around our young guys, but again, that’s if you squint really, really, really hard. Just two bad teams making business is the way that I look at it.
Ethan Sands (06:11.675)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (06:15.42)
True, and you mentioned the Kevin Durant trade and I want to get into specifics on that one because this is another trade where I feel like there are some questions involved even though you understand what the Houston Rockets are getting. Phoenix now getting paired along with Devin Booker who is still on the trade market, allegedly. The Phoenix Suns received Jalen Green, Dillon Brooks in the number 10 pick in the 2025 draft.
and five second round picks for Kevin Durant, NBA Finals MVP two times. So I think when you talk about a team that now has a defensive core of Alpharine Shengun, Amand Thompson, and you know you’re losing a little bit of that with Dillon Brooks, but I think this was a testament to what the Houston Rockets believe in Amand Thompson’s ceiling on the defensive end of the floor and also his facilitating and ball handling.
to be able to take on some of the role of Jalen Green as well. Then you obviously get the pure score of Kevin Durant. does not matter how old he gets. He is going to be one of the best scorers with the basketball in his hand in the entire NBA. So Chris, what did you think about this trade, how it panned out, and now knowing that there were six trades or six picks included in this deal for Kevin Durant?
Chris Fedor (07:45.134)
Well, I I think you have to look at this trade and you have to look at it with the understanding, Ethan, that in many ways, Kevin Durant controlled this process. In many ways, the situation involving KD, the combination of his age and his contract, and him potentially being a rental for other teams out there made some teams that were probably interested a little bit more hesitant because they didn’t think he was going to stay there long term because
They didn’t think they could get him on a contract extension. I think when you have that kind of situation, if you’re a team like Cleveland, if you’re a team like Minnesota, if you’re a team like Denver, whoever it may be, that had an interest in KD and should have had an interest in KD, he’s a top 10 player in the NBA. He’s a high level playoff performer. He’s one of the best scorers of all time.
But if you’re one of those teams and he has let it be known that he’s not signing an extension with you, or he’s only going to be a rental, you’re a little bit more hesitant on what you’re willing to give up. So you’re not probably going to meet the asking price of the Phoenix Suns. So with KD basically determining, hey, Houston is a place that I want to get to, San Antonio is an interesting spot for me, it always felt like…
Those were the teams that were going to finally put together enough of a package that would entice Phoenix enough. They weren’t ever going to duplicate what they gave up in order to get KD. Like they weren’t going to recoup all of that, but were they going to get enough that would make them comfortable saying yes. And if you’re a team where KD wants to be there and he is willing to sign an extension.
you’re probably going to put together a package that actually makes Phoenix say yes, and that’s what Houston did. Now, from Houston’s standpoint, they didn’t put a Men Thompson in there. They didn’t put Reed Shepard in there. They didn’t put all of the future draft capital that they have coming back to them from the Phoenix Suns. So if you’re like stacking up these assets and you’re saying, okay, this one’s the most valuable.
Chris Fedor (10:06.924)
This one’s the second most valuable. This one’s the third most valuable. They hung on to a majority of the assets that they wanted to hang on to for Katie. Jabari Smith Jr., another one that they were able to hang on to. So I think they got down the list of like five, six, seven in that pecking order. And they said, okay, well, if you’re going to take all of this, all of this quantity as opposed to quality, then we’ll package this all together.
And we’ll take KD for this, but we’re not going to put Jabari Smith in there. We’re not going to put Reid Sheppard in there. We’re not going to put those future picks that you want back in there. So I think Houston, for them, it’s an A-plus deal. He’s exactly the kind of player they needed. If you think about what happened toward the end of their playoff run, they just couldn’t find enough consistent offense, especially in late game situations. How many times did they get stuck in a possession with Alper and Shangoon just like dribbling around the court?
trying to create something on his own or Fred Van Vliet being guarded by multiple defenders trying to create some kind of offense for Houston, they were a middle of the pack playoff offense. And if they want to compete with Oklahoma City, if they want to hold off the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Denver Nuggets and the Los Angeles Lakers and some of these other teams in the Western Conference, they need a proven player like this. They need a mature player like this. They need a score.
in late game situations like this. So to me, A plus deal for the Houston Rockets.
Ethan Sands (11:43.94)
I agree with you. think, I think Kevin Durant is exactly what the type of player that they need in. but Chris, there were multiple reports that the Cavs somehow ended up as a sleeper in this deal and a sleeper in the competition to acquire Kevin Durant with reports stating that Darius Garland was a part of the package that the Cavs were offering. What do you make of that entire situation? What do you make of
Darius Garland being the player that the Cavs would have gone to to trade for Kevin Durant.
Chris Fedor (12:21.806)
necessarily know if I’d phrase it as the Cavs wanted to trade Darius for KD. I think it was a situation where KD makes $54 million and Darius Garland’s $39 million contract made the most sense from a financial perspective and from a value perspective. Look, I know people don’t like hearing this and a lot of the fan base has come at me in my mentions and stuff like that, but if the Cavs, if they look at their situation and they say,
We have an opportunity to improve. We have an opportunity to increase our title chances. And then they ask themselves, how do we do that? The answer to that question is Darius Garland and Darius Garland only. And it’s not about Darius necessarily. It’s about a combination of his contract and the value that he brings back. I don’t think, Ethan, there are a lot of people out there that look at
any other player aside from Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Darius Garland as a potential centerpiece to a blockbuster trade from the Cavs perspective. And if the Cavs are going to go and they’re going to hunt for a whale, then it’s not going to be using Max Struce. It’s not going to be using Jalen Tyson. They don’t have any future draft capital that’s going to satisfy a team.
So we’re talking about Kevin freaking Durant, right? We’re talking about a future Hall of Famer, one of the best players of the last decade. We’re talking about a top 10 player in the NBA. You’re not getting that for Jared Allen. You know, you’re not getting that for a handful of second round picks. Look at what Houston just gave up. And I know I said, like if you rank their assets, they were an asset rich team to begin with. So Jalen Green,
The only thing, if you look at it from the Cavs perspective, the only thing comparable from a value perspective, from a trade asset perspective, on the Cavs compared to the Rockets, the only thing that is on the level of Jalen Green in terms of appeal, trade appeal, the only thing is Darius Garland, period. Because he is the best combination of quote unquote expendable,
Chris Fedor (14:47.156)
and Teams around the NBA would value Darius. He’s a 25 year old two time All-Star. You know what I mean? He’s one of the best young point guards in the NBA who has playoff experience now, who has been in a winning situation now, and still, you think, has untapped potential and upside to continue to get better and better and better and maybe, you know,
focus on improving some of his flaws and maybe learning from some of his postseason failures. So it’s not a situation where the Cavs are like, Hey, like we want to move on from Darius. But if the conversation internally is going to center on significant upgrades to the roster, if that’s going to be the conversation. And in this case, that is what we’re talking about with Kevin Durant.
If you’re talking about acquiring that level player, the guy who you think is going to, you know, speed up your clock, your contention clock, even more than it already was. A guy who you think is a better fit to your championship puzzle. A guy that brings you closer to the level of the NBA champion, Oklahoma City Thunder. If that’s what we’re talking about, that is going to be costly.
and you’re going to have to find something of significant value to get something of significance back in return. And if there’s somebody else out there that is in that same kind of mold, that same kind of tier where he can shift the landscape of the NBA, if the Cavs are going to be involved in those kinds of conversations,
No matter how deep they got, no matter how far down the road they got, if the Cavs are going to be in those conversations for those caliber players, it’s going to involve Darius Garland. That’s the bottom line.
Ethan Sands (16:58.716)
I think that’s fair. And I think it makes a whole lot of sense. And obviously, as you mentioned, Kevin Durant and nobody that you would sneeze at his competitive level, his accolades, all these things. I just think it’s interesting when we talk about the comparison of what the Cavs would have been getting back, what they would have been giving up in the timeline for this team and also understanding that this is a win now team. Do you think this is?
Chris Fedor (17:22.582)
Hmm
Ethan Sands (17:27.024)
This would have been a move that proved or even the reports illustrate that the Cavs are in a hungry state to acquire a player that can help them win now and be in this NBA finals or bust, even though we know that Darius Garland was injured in the last playoff series. Could this also be potentially showing the Cavs and the organization and the fan base that this Cavs team is ready to be aggressive?
Chris Fedor (17:49.526)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (17:56.124)
even if that means shortening their contention window and going and trying to win a championship next year.
Chris Fedor (18:06.478)
Well, let me ask you this question. If you swap out in this would not have been the only deal because you still need to find other salary. Maybe the Cavs would have had to find another team or another two teams or maybe Phoenix would have to sell and get a different owner in there for Matt Ishby and Dan Gilbert actually to do business. But since we’re having this hypothetical and since it’s been reported, I think we can talk about it.
So let me ask you this. If you swap out Darius Garland for Kevin Durant, do the Cavs championship chances increase?
Ethan Sands (18:46.638)
One for one, no, I don’t think so. One for one, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. That’s fair, that’s fine. But I still think that one of the biggest issues that the Cavs had in the playoffs was getting the ball up the floor. And I don’t think Kevin Durant enhances that for the Cavs. Darius Garland’s presence not being ampered or injured does that.
Chris Fedor (18:50.368)
What? Wow, I think you’re nuts. my God.
Chris Fedor (19:08.91)
You can go sign, you can go sign Tias Jones on the veterans minimum to dribble the ball up the floor and organize the offense. Or you could go sign Spencer Dinwiddie to dribble the ball up the floor across the timeline and organize offense. This is KD. KD!
Ethan Sands (19:14.543)
Right.
Ethan Sands (19:27.642)
I hear you. I hear you. So what would your starting lineup be? Donovan, Max, Katie, Evan, and Jared?
Chris Fedor (19:37.054)
Yeah! Good luck dealing with that. Have fun, New York. Have fun, Orlando.
Ethan Sands (19:38.702)
Okay.
Okay, so you would have Donovan be de facto point guard, even though the more general topic that we’ve had is trying to get Donovan off the ball more this season, right? We’ve made that clear. It’s better to get Donovan. Okay.
Chris Fedor (19:53.663)
Yeah!
Chris Fedor (20:00.738)
Yeah, I think this is where the broader conversation comes in. And I don’t think this should be taken as the calves are unhappy with Darius Garland, they don’t believe in Darius Garland. This is a special circumstance. And when special things are at your doorstep or your possible doorstep, you make exceptions.
Would it be ideal for the Cavs to have Donovan Mitchell as the de facto point guard? No, but if that’s what’s required to have Kevin Durant on this team, or like I said, you figure out a way to make it all work, you bring Jared off the bench if you have to. I don’t care. Like, when you have an opportunity like this, you just make exceptions or you make concessions.
or you do things that may not be entirely perfect. But let’s go back to a couple of years ago. The Cavs had an opportunity to get Lowry Markkinen. And they had an opportunity to improve their basketball team. Did it make all the sense in the world from a fit perspective because of what they already had on the team? Do you really want to play three bigs? Do you bring Markkinen off the bench? You worry about all that crap later. And you just say, hey,
Kevin Durant is one of the best scores in the entire NBA. And if a team is going to be geared up to try and slow down Donovan Mitchell, or a team is going to be a very, very disruptive with Evan Mobley out on the perimeter, like how can you consistently generate more offense? If you need more size, if you need more playoff readiness, if you need more maturity on your basketball team, like how do you get that? Katie brings all that kind of stuff. So.
I just think this is a unique circumstance where the Cavs saw an opportunity like every other team in the NBA. Everybody knew that KD was going to be available. And if you’re a person that is running an organization and you don’t call Phoenix about, Hey, what would it cost? What players on our roster do you have interest in? What’s the likelihood?
Chris Fedor (22:21.782)
that Kevin Durant would want to be here. If you’re an organization and KD is out there, KD, and you don’t make that call, you’re not doing your job. Especially a team like the Cavs that could theoretically, you know, change everything in the Eastern Conference by adding a player like that. Because one of the things that we did talk about throughout the course of their playoff run is a level of readiness.
And what’s the thing that everybody’s going to say about the Cavs coming into this year, Ethan? They’re going to say, all right, cool. Like it doesn’t really matter what you do in the regular season. I will believe in you when I see it happen in the playoffs. KD has done it on the biggest stage in the NBA in a way that Darius hasn’t. KD has done it on the biggest stage in the NBA in a way that even Evan Mobley hasn’t. So if you can eliminate some of those questions about some of your core players,
and you could theoretically replace them with a proven NBA champion who fits your contention window, who brings you closer to the team that just won the NBA championship in Oklahoma City. You know, forget about what the starting lineup will look like. You know, forget about who’s going to dribble the ball up the floor. You figure all that stuff out a little bit later on. And it’s not to say that fit doesn’t matter. Fit does matter. But KD fits.
KD fits on this team. it may not be the typical starting lineup, but stylistically he fits on this team. So I think that’s all it was when it came to the Cavs and I don’t know how deep they got into it. I don’t know how real those conversations were. I think the Cavs got an understanding that KD didn’t want to be here. That KD was not going to sign an extension here.
I also think they believed that it was probably going to take multiple teams, maybe three or four of them to consummate a deal and give Phoenix everything it would want in return. And I also think that the Cavs felt like because of his salary, they probably would have had to shake up the roster a little bit more than they would have been comfortable with by bringing in a third team, a fourth team, and then sending those teams some pieces. So I don’t know that.
Chris Fedor (24:44.994)
I don’t know that the Cavs had enough of an appetite to do that for somebody who was probably just going to be a one-year rental for them. Not for Houston, but for them, a one-year rental. But anytime you have an opportunity and you’re in a situation like the Cavs and you can increase your championship chances, do it. Provided what you’re giving up is reasonable enough.
Ethan Sands (25:08.965)
And I don’t
Ethan Sands (25:14.586)
And I think you make a great point. And I think I want to get into what my mindset was when you said one for one, right? When you say one for one, Katie Darius Garland, obviously Katie has the better resume. Katie has the better skillset when it comes to scoring the basketball. But there are other things that come to mind. It’s not just the lineup. It’s what if Ty Jerome isn’t on this team anymore? So then you have legitimate point guards in Craig Porter Jr. And who else?
Chris Fedor (25:25.496)
Mm.
Ethan Sands (25:44.186)
Right? Because you would not, you would, in this situation, you wouldn’t have Darius Garland. And in this situation, you wouldn’t have Ty Jarrell. Right? So sure, Donovan Mitchell can play the fact that a point guard, but then you would have to go and make moves on around the margins to get another point guard in some capacity. Right? And we’ve talked about this. The fact of the matter is if Isaac Kukuro gets traded for Lonzo Ball, and you have this trade still at your doorstep, that is the perfect ideal world. Right? Cause you get Lonzo, you get
Kevin Durant, you have a ball handler, you have a good defender, you have the scoring that you need, and you have players that you can switch in and out. But it becomes for me more nuanced, Chris, and I blame you for that because we only have nuanced conversations on this podcast. We only have conversations where we know we have to go in depth, right? So one-on-one, 1v1, sure, KD, Darius Garland, you understand what’s better, but would it be more beneficial
for this team in the long run, it’s questionable to me, right? And I just think, and I’m not saying that the Donovan, Max Struess, KD, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen starting lineup wouldn’t be great because I do believe it would, especially with the fact that I’ve been a proponent of saying Max Struess is or should be better suited to play the two than the three anyway. So that would fix that problem altogether. I just think there’s so many different layers to this. And as you mentioned, Chris,
It would take a three, four man or a four team deal to have gotten this done rather than just a one off situation. Plus the fact that if the Cavs made that trade and then did not win the NBA championship, I feel like they could be regretting it because as you mentioned, it could have been a one year situation. It’s likely a one year situation for KD. So that’s just where my mind was at when you proposed that.
trade and questioned to me, not necessarily trying to say that Kevin Durant would not help this basketball team because I don’t want people to think I’m that crazy. But yeah, and I want to get into the last trade for today’s podcast when we talk about across the NBA and affecting the Eastern Conference even more. The Boston Celtics traded Drew Holliday back to the Portland Trail Blazers.
Chris Fedor (27:50.03)
You
Ethan Sands (28:08.91)
or Anthony Simons. Chris, this trade feels like Brad Stevens keeps stealing candy from babies. It does not feel fair that the fact that the Boston Celtics were able to get Simons in two second round picks for Drew Holliday, a player who helped them win a championship, who was aging, and the fact that Drew Holliday’s contract over the next few seasons
was insane for the Boston Celtics to be paying. So they not only got a younger player with an offensive skillset that could help in the time off of Jason Tatum being gone, who also can play defense to a decent caliber, but you also get off of a contract that would have been hindering you in the future. Plus we know that Simon’s is on an expiring contract, so they can have discussions with him and extend him if they feel like he is a perfect fit.
for this team going forward, or as we mentioned with the KD deal, it could be just a one year rental. What do you think about the Portland Boston trade and how it panned out? And do you think it was a steal?
Chris Fedor (29:25.966)
Well, it certainly helped Boston with one of its motivations this offseason, which is to kind of reset their salary cap situation knowing that this is, I don’t know if gap year is the right phrase for it, but it certainly doesn’t feel like this is a championship contender because Jason Tatum’s out for the entire year with a torn Achilles. So it’s not win.
at all costs, it’s not championship or bust. I think gap year might be the way that I phrase it. Sure. We’ll go with gap year. and, drew holiday made a whole bunch of money. And if you’re a team that’s not going to compete for a championship, do you have an opportunity to kind of get rid of some of that money? And they did. And that’s one of their motivations this off season. I would not be surprised if they continue to look for suitors for Kristaps Porzingis because
It’s the same kind of situation. and then just kind of figure things out when Jason Tatum heals up and see where you’re at as an organization from there. But the fact that they got Anthony Simons, I mean, I don’t think he’s a huge component to Boston’s future. I think he’s the kind of guy where if you watch him on a daily basis, he’s really, really maddening. There can be big nights.
He’s probably gonna lead the NBA in three-point attempts in Boston. He might take 14 a game, honestly, in Boston, with Joe Mazzullo as his head coach. That dude’s gonna be out there chucking. But I don’t think Simons is any kind of solution to Boston’s problem. I think it’s more, thank you for your help in getting us off of Drew Holiday’s money, because that was something that we wanted to do.
And by the way, instead of us attaching an asset to it or two assets to it, you gave us a competent basketball player back in return who might lead the NBA in three point attempts. And you gave us draft picks too. So this was a big deal for Boston. Not from an on court perspective, not from a, Hey, this increases our championship chances perspective, because that wasn’t what this was about. But.
Chris Fedor (31:48.586)
Every single trade has its own motivation. And for Boston, they accomplished exactly what they wanted to accomplish in this Drew Holiday deal, and they didn’t have to attach an asset or two to Drew’s contract just to rid themselves of
Ethan Sands (32:03.994)
Yeah. And as we’ve talked about the second apron so much with the Cleveland Cavaliers, like money is tight for everybody. Even if you’re not under, even if you’re under the tax, the teams are feeling it. Every team other than Brooklyn really is feeling it. And I think it’s important for Boston, especially when they think about what they’re going to want to do with Jalen Brown as he repairs from his arthroscopic knee surgery. And then Jason Tatum, who’s coming back from an Achilles tear.
Chris Fedor (32:18.734)
Mmm.
Ethan Sands (32:33.98)
what their future now looks like, especially after having the taste of a championship, but also understanding that there is going to be this gap year of trying to figure out where they’re going to fall and what they might need after this year, depending on how the season pans out. But speaking of the end of the season and how seasons panned out, Chris, I want to end this podcast with a little bit of a recap of the NBA finals and how it came to a close.
The 2024-2025 season is now wrapped up with the Oklahoma City Thunder being the NBA champions. Jay Gillard is Alexander, one MVP for the regular season, was the scoring champion for the regular season, and won finals MVP. I believe he’s only the fourth player in NBA history to accomplish said feat. Chris, I want to start here because I think there are…
cannot be stressed enough the emotional capacity and the emotional toll that was taken on the Indiana Pacers when they lost Tyrese Halliburton in the first quarter to an Achilles tear, a ruptured Achilles that we’ve now had reported. It felt like, and it seemed like Tyrese Halliburton was not only going to do everything in his power to lead his team to a championship, but
He had already hit the most threes in the end. He ended up hitting the most threes in the entire game, three of them, and he only played in the first quarter, the first few minutes of the first quarter. And it felt unfair for the player that had been arguably the clutches player in the entire playoffs to not get the opportunity, not to get the chance to even play in the final game of the season, to be able to write his storybook ending. Chris, what was your mindset?
the emotions that you felt just watching the game and knowing that not only was that going to affect the outcome of the NBA Finals, but it was going to affect the next year for Tyrese Halliburton.
Chris Fedor (34:46.306)
Well, my God, what a devastating blow for Tyrese and what a devastating blow for the Indiana Pacers. I was gutted, especially for him. You think about a player like him who works his entire life to get to that point where he’s got a chance to win a championship. He’s one win away from a championship. He’s 48 minutes away from a championship and he gets off to a dream start in game seven, hitting three threes, tons of momentum, confidence.
looked like Indiana was going to test OKC even being on the road and then that happens. So I think the first thing is you just feel for the player because you understand everything. When you cover the NBA, you understand everything that these guys go through, everything they put them bodies through, everything that they sacrifice in order to get to that point. So I was gutted from a human level just watching that.
And I don’t think you can understate just how much of a blow this is to the Indiana Pacers. Um, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they were adamant about trying to get their 2026 first round pick back. Um, I also look, there are few players in the NBA who are as impactful and as important to the success of their franchise.
as Tyrese Halliburton is to the Indiana Pacers. He is their system. He is the engine of one of the most prolific offenses in the NBA. And it just doesn’t function at the same level without him. Period. This is a guy who I had internal conversations about maybe putting him top five in my MVP ballot because his impact on a nightly basis, it just can’t go understated. So…
If we were having a conversation about the Cavs and their championship chances two weeks ago, and we had a lot of those conversations, the conversations are very, very different now because Indiana suddenly is no longer the same threat that it was because they cannot be the same team. They cannot be the same contender without Tyrese Halibur. He means too much to their success.
Chris Fedor (37:12.972)
And there’s no way that they can go out and trade for somebody that can do the things that he does. There’s no way that they can go out and find somebody in free agency that does the same things that he does at the level that he does them for that team in that system. He is one of the most irreplaceable players in the entire NBA. So all of a sudden the Eastern Conference is wide open for the Cavs. Boston isn’t the same threat.
and Indiana isn’t the same threat. And you know, when we were talking about the Cavs and the aftermath of losing against Indiana, it was all about, okay, the Cavs aren’t on Indiana’s level. How do they get to that level? Okay, the Cavs aren’t on the same level as New York. How do they get to that level? The Cavs aren’t on the same level as Minnesota and Oklahoma City. How do they get to that level?
And so much of our conversation was about the things that the Cavs had to do. Well, one of the variables that always exists is one of those teams that have separated themselves coming closer to the Cavs. Taking a step back. And we didn’t expect that from Indiana. There was no reason to expect that from Indiana until Tyrese Halliburton ruptured his Achilles. Now all of sudden, the Cavs and Pacers are closer.
Not because of anything that the Cavs did, but because of what the Pacers lost. Now all of a sudden the Cavs and the Celtics are closer. Not because of anything the Cavs did, but because the Celtics lost Jason Tatum and they moved closer to the Cavs. So I still think that they could look at their situation and say, okay, we still do need to improve this roster, but…
Now all of sudden, I don’t know that there’s as much motivation from the Cavs perspective because they got the help that they needed. It didn’t come externally. It didn’t come in the form of another player. It didn’t come in free agency. It didn’t come via trade. It came from, you know, bad luck from the Indiana Pacers. Bad timing for an injury for Tyrese Halliburton, bad timing for an injury for Jason Tatum.
Chris Fedor (39:35.852)
New York still exists. Orlando is going to be tough. Maybe there’s more urgency for Detroit and they push the all in button. They try and orchestrate some win now moves this off season. But the Eastern Conference is as wide open as it has ever been. And it didn’t take the Cavs breaking up the core four for that to happen. It didn’t take a significant roster.
remake for that to happen. It didn’t take a trade of Darius Garland or Jared Allen. It didn’t take anything like that. So the question is now, what do the Cavs do with this new opportunity that is suddenly in front of
Ethan Sands (40:23.612)
Chris, I posed this question to the subtexters and I’m going to pose it to you as well because we kind of tiptoed around this topic throughout the summer and the urgency that the Cavs have to have in the 2025-2026 season, especially with how wide open already the Eastern Conference was. Now we have Jason Tatum going to be out for likely the entire season. Tyrese Halliburton, same thing. Damian Lillard.
Same thing, three key factors, three players that are instrumental to their teams that are now not going to be there. I asked the subtexters if they could agree that this is now an NBA finals or bust situation for the Cleveland Cavaliers. I think it is. Are you on the same plane?
Chris Fedor (41:21.248)
Yeah, I think so.
But I think…
Chris Fedor (41:29.518)
But I think they’re in a good place. Like I don’t think NBA finals are bust means they have to act out of desperation or they have to overreact and start making a whole bunch of, of, of decisions that are short-term minded. Look, if the right opportunity is out there, the Cavs should consider it and they should explore the possibility of, of what their team would look like if they were to make that move.
and I think they were approaching this off season that way from the very beginning. and I’ve said it for, for a long time on this podcast. I don’t think I don’t look out to the horizon and see a Darius Garland deal that the Cavs would say yes to. And I don’t look out on the horizon and see a Jared Allen deal that the Cavs would say yes to, but that doesn’t mean that the horizon will stay the same. It could change.
That’s life in the NBA. So I think they have to be open-minded to the idea of external improvement. If the opportunity arises and if the right deal comes along, if the right player becomes available to them. But I do think it’s championship or bust. I do think there has to be a level of urgency within this organization.
I don’t think that means be reckless, but I think that means rightly be aggressive. And in saying all of that, and look, there are questions about them in a 16 game environment and whether Darius Garland is ready in the role that he is in to compete for a championship and whether Jared Allen is ready in the role that he is in to compete for a championship. And the same thing when it comes to Evan Mobley. Like there are legitimate questions about that because they just haven’t proven it.
in the playoffs. The playoffs are different than the regular season. We now know that. We’ve known that for a long time, but I think we are reminded of that over the last couple of years. In saying all of that, despite the questions that exist with this team, and despite the doubts that are going to continue to be there until they show a level of playoff competence, they have three All-Stars.
Chris Fedor (43:53.356)
They have two all NBA players. have the reigning coach of the year who is a very good tactician. They have, a very smart executive in president of basketball operations, Kobe Altman. They have a piece that they traded for at the trade deadline that they didn’t get to fully explore to the level that I think they wanted to. they have the reigning defensive player of the year. They have.
quite possibly going into this season. We don’t know what’s going to happen with Giannis in Milwaukee. So that’s why I say quite possibly in big bold letters, quite possibly the most talented player in the Eastern Conference. There’s no Jason Tatum. There may be no Giannis. There is no Tyrese Halliburton. So when you’re a team like that, you have some things going for you. You have some things to be hopeful.
about. You have a reason to say, let’s not panic. Let’s take a deep breath. Let’s not overreact. And I think that’s the approach that the Cavs have taken going into this off season. I think that’s the approach that they’re going to take moving forward. But yes, should they have urgency? Absolutely. Should it be viewed as a failure if they don’t get to the NBA finals given what the landscape in the Eastern Conference looks like today?
when we’re having this conversation today? Yes, absolutely.
Ethan Sands (45:31.546)
Alright, I think we’re on the same page.
Chris Fedor (45:33.272)
They’re also, like there’s one more element to this whole thing too. They’re also going to be one of the teams in the NBA with the highest salary. Like if you’re going to be that financially committed and you’re going to be that financially limited and restricted based on the apron. I mean, if you’re in the second apron, you better compete for a championship or you better have a team that you believe can compete for a championship.
And if you don’t, man, the window closes quickly in today’s NBA. I’m just gonna say that.
Ethan Sands (46:12.538)
And there’s still plenty of trades to be made around the entire NBA. As Chris mentioned, this is the conversation that we are having today on June 24th. Things change. As we were logging on to record this podcast, A Trade Happened. We mentioned that at the beginning of this episode. So things change quickly. Things are fluid in the NBA. But I think we both believe
that the Cavs have the talent to get to the NBA finals. It’s about all the intangibles around them that are going to determine whether they get there or not. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext so you can get your voice heard.
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